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LINGUIST List 17.693

Mon Mar 06 2006

Qs: Surcomposé Tenses; GIVE vs. ENVY, FORGIVE, etc.

Editor for this issue: James Rider <riderlinguistlist.org>

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        1.    Gerhard Schaden, Surcomposé Tenses
        2.    Timothy Colleman, GIVE vs. ENVY, FORGIVE, ADMIRE, etc.

Message 1: Surcomposé Tenses
Date: 03-Mar-2006
From: Gerhard Schaden <gerhard.schadengmail.com>
Subject: Surcomposé Tenses


I am looking for languages with ''surcomposé'' tenses, that is, tenses that
look something like:

John has had eaten a cake.

Here, the auxiliairy of a compound tense (''have'') is ''auxiliated'' by
another auxiliary (here: once again, ''have'').

I know that such tenses exist (or existed) in French, Francoprovençal,
Occitan, Varieties of Northern Italian, Rhetoromance languages, and German.

So, it looks like those Tenses exist in the region around the Alps.

My questions:

1) Does anybody of you know of such tenses in other areas of the globe?

2) Are there somewhere in a language phenomena of doubled tense inflexions?
(something like ''John work-ed-ed at home'')

I am looking forward to hear your answers,

Gerhard Schaden

Linguistic Field(s): Morphology
Message 2: GIVE vs. ENVY, FORGIVE, ADMIRE, etc.
Date: 03-Mar-2006
From: Timothy Colleman <timothy.collemanUGent.be>
Subject: GIVE vs. ENVY, FORGIVE, ADMIRE, etc.

Dear List members,

In a number of well-studied Indo-European languages, it has been observed
that some attitudinal verbs expressing concepts such as (NOT) ENVY, ADMIRE,
FORGIVE, REPROACH, PRAISE, etc. can be used in the same syntactic
construction as GIVE verbs, as is shown in the examples from English,
Spanish, Dutch, and Polish below.

a. John gave his brother a book.
b. John envied his brother his good looks.
c. John would forgive his brother anything.

a. Jan gaf zijn broer een boek.
John gave his brother a book.
b. Jan benijdt zijn broer die rijkdom.
John envies his brother that wealth.
c. Jan zou zijn broer alles vergeven.
John would his brother everything forgive
'John would forgive his brother anything'

a. Le di un libro.
Him/her-DAT gave a book
'I gave him/her a book'
b. Le envidio esa imaginación fertil
Him/her-DAT envy that imagination fertile
'I envy him/her that rich imagination'
c. Le perdono sus insultos.
Him/her-DAT forgive his/her insults
'I forgive him/her his/her insults'
d. Le admiro su dedicación
Him/her-DAT admire his/her dedication
'I admire his/her dedication'


a. Jan dał jej ksiażke.
John-NOM gave her-DAT book-ACC
'John gave her a book'
b. Miłość ci wszystko wybaczy.
Love-NOM you-DAT everything-ACC forgive.
'Love forgives you everything'

In the (a)-examples, the indirect or dative object codes the person to whom
something is given while the direct or accusative object codes the
transferred object. In examples (b) to (d), the indirect or dative object
codes the person who is envied, admired, forgiven etc. while the direct or
accusative object codes the act or the attribute which the person in
question is envied, admired, forgiven etc. for.

I would like to know whether there are other, especially non-Indo European,
languages which also display this syntactic analogy between GIVE verbs and
verbs denoting (NOT) ENVY, FORGIVE, ADMIRE or related attitudinal concepts?
Examples would be much appreciated. A summary will be posted afterwards.

Linguistic Field(s): Semantics

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