LINGUIST List 2.608

Thu 03 Oct 1991

Disc: Polite Pronouns

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Directory

  1. , Re: 2.605 Polite Pronouns
  2. Dan I. Slobin, Re: 2.605 Polite Pronouns
  3. Herb Stahlke, Re: 2.605 Polite Pronouns
  4. Joe Giampapa, Re: Jack Rea's "varia" 2.601

Message 1: Re: 2.605 Polite Pronouns

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1991 14:25 CST
From: <LIFY460orange.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: 2.605 Polite Pronouns
Re Michel Grimaud's reference to Mischstil in Hill Street Blues
Recall the "sweet nothing" uttered by Peter Wimsey to Harriet Vane
on the last page of _Gaudy Night_ (where they're affirming that they're
meant for each other):
he says (what a line!):
	Placetne, magistra?
she repies (what else?):
	Placet.
Christine Kamprath
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Message 2: Re: 2.605 Polite Pronouns

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 91 22:25:29 -0700
From: Dan I. Slobin <slobincogsci.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2.605 Polite Pronouns
I asked a visiting Russian psychotherapist, Alexander Zinchenko,
what pronouns are used in therapist-client interaction
nowadays in Moscow. He is young, and represents Esalen-type
therapeutic methods. These approaches, in California, are
clearly non-hierarchical, and if we spoke Russian here, I have
no doubt that mutual "ty" would be the norm. However,
Zinchenko reports that therapy sessions are conducted with
mutual "vy" in Moscow.
With regard to switching between "ty" and "vy": Paul Friedrich
did an extensive study, published in the 60s, about switches
in Russian literature and drama, with intimates switching from
"ty" to "vy" to indicate momentary distance (anger, hurt,
rejection, etc.).
If this interchange is to continue, we might as well start
looking at address terms as well. Russian provides a middle
ground in use of first name and patronymic (e.g. Mikhail
Sergeyevich) with "vy".
Dan Slobin (slobincogsci.berkeley.edu)
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Message 3: Re: 2.605 Polite Pronouns

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1991 13:51 EST
From: Herb Stahlke <00HFSTAHLKEBSUVAX1.bitnet>
Subject: Re: 2.605 Polite Pronouns
I'm not a native speaker of a you/youse dialect of American English,
but in driving through small Ohio towns along Lake Erie I have found
myself addressed, politely, by local shop-keepers as "youse," as in,
"Well, youse can take a left turn at the light and then go three
blocks." Such speakers, and I've heard the like from more than one,
might have assumed that I was not alone, but the feel of it was that
they were being polite to a stranger. Does anyone with more
experience of such a dialect have a stronger sense of the use of
youse?
Herb Stahlke
Ball State University
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Message 4: Re: Jack Rea's "varia" 2.601

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 91 15:27:45 +0100 (MET)
From: Joe Giampapa <garofsixcom.sixcom.it>
Subject: Re: Jack Rea's "varia" 2.601
|3)
|Date: Mon, 30 Sep 91 17:21:28 EDT
|From: jack rea <JAREAUKCC.uky.edu>
|Subject: varia
|Italians settled on 'Lei' as the article for second person, singular,
|'Loro' as a plural -- with the occasionally heard Royalists (of which
|there were only two political parties) holding out for forms like, say
|'egli' or even 'essa'.
 ^^^^ ^^^^
Still used.
A quick review with my colleagues (some ex-grammar teachers) produces the
following:
			Italian Subject Pronouns
1st singular			io
1st plural			noi
2nd singular informal		tu
2nd plural informal		voi	considered correct for 2nd singular
					formal but not used
2nd singular formal		*Lei	formally incorrect but used
					considered correct for object pronoun
2nd plural formal		*Loro	archaic; formally incorrect but used
					considered correct for object pronoun
3rd singular male		egli/esso	considered correct for 2nd
					singular formal but not used
3rd singular female		essa	considered correct for 2nd
					singular formal but not used
3rd singular female archaic	ella
3rd plural male			essi
3rd plural female		esse
3rd plural fe/male		*loro	formally incorrect but used
					considered correct for object pronoun
Egli/esso/essa/ella/essi/esse are used in formal Italian contracts, from first
hand experience. I have never used them in conversation.
Another person corrects me:
"Lei" corresponds to "she" whereas "essa" and "ella" are for female "it".
"Voi" is frequently used as the convention for 2nd person plural formal, even
though I learned "Loro" in Connecticut (USA) schools.
I might have confused some of this information, as it usually takes about an
hour to get a consensus on this list and its usage. There have been
differences of opinion according to age of speaker, as well.
-Joe Giampapa
Sixcom, Olivetti Group
Milano
garofsixcom.sixcom.it			garof%sixcom.sixcom.ituunet.uu.net
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