LINGUIST List 2.655

Mon 14 Oct 1991

Disc: X and I; Polite pronouns

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Directory

1. Fan mail from some flounder?, Re: 2.648 X and I
2. Dominique Estival, 2.648 X and I
3. "ACAD3A::FFLDK", X and I
4. Richard Ogden, RE: 2.639 PC, Pronouns, Plurals and Turkic
5. Michel Eytan LILoL, Re: 2.615 Polite/Plural Pronouns

Message 1: Re: 2.648 X and I

ASL has a construction that uses juxtaposition and a kind of agreement instead
of a preposition, but it may be a related phenomenon:
HUSBAND WE-TWO [exclusive] = My husband and I
Susan Fischer

Knud Lambrecht remarks that spoken French has a variant of the construction
Kelly Wahl was inquiring about. Indeed, not only:
 1. Avec Michel on est alle' au cine'ma.
 2. On est alle' au cine'ma avec Michel.
but also:
 3. Nous avec Michel on est alle' au cine'ma.
 4. Avec Michel nous sommes alle's au cine'ma.
 5. Nous sommes alle's au cine'ma avec Michel.
 6. Nous avec Michel nous sommes alle's au cine'ma.
are very common, and can mean that "I and Michel went to the movies".
I say "can", because all of the above can also mean that other people went
along.
This dialect of French is not restricted to Switzerland, I am French and
was using the equivalent in English until corrected by native speakers.
Dominique Estival
ISSCO, Universite de Geneve
CH-1227 Geneve
estivaldivsun.unige.ch

Knud Lambrecht notes in the "we with X" discussion that in French one can
say things like, "On est alle' au cine'ma avec Michel." to mean 'Michel and
I went to the movies.' where On = Nous. I'm pretty sure one can also say
these same sentences using Nous directly, so
 Nous sommes arrive's avec Jean.
means 'Jean and I arrived.' Check this with a Native speaker, which I am not,
but I'm quite sure I've heard this and seen it noted in grammars of French.
Lawrence Kaplan
University of Alaska Fairbanks

Message 4: RE: 2.639 PC, Pronouns, Plurals and Turkic

As an English Quaker I have to reply to Bruce Nevin's remarks about
the 'plain speech' of certain American Friends.
Such usage is not at all current among British Friends, although we
do not use titles among ourselves and some Friends address others
by their given name and their family name. The 'plain speech', ie
use of 'thou-thee' and no titles might have been 'plain' 300 years
ago, but is no longer.
The few birthright Friends I know (ie those born into the Society -
the ones I know can go back many generations) are no different in their
usage of pronouns etc from the rest of us.
There's a really interesting book on the 'testimony to plain speaking'
published in the USA, unfortunately I can't remember the details.
Richard Ogden

Message 5: Re: 2.615 Polite/Plural Pronouns

let me come back somewhat to the original tu/vous debate in French, since I
 would like to air some intuitive feelings.
When I was young, we used to adress other (young?) males by their LAST name; and
 of course 'ladies' by Madame X (or Mademoiselle X), unless you were intimate
 with them. Nowadays, when you have only slight intimacy with people, and even
 if you do not use tu with them, you often called them by their FIRST name, be
 they male or female -- or else you are a damn snob. Now to me, as a speaker of
 French this feels very much like the American (NOT British) way of expressing
 the tu/vous distinction without going too far (ie as far as tu).
Michel