LINGUIST List 2.849

Fri 06 Dec 1991

Disc: Names

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Directory

1. , 2.835 Names - articles and proper names (Italian)
2. "Lester C Jacobson", Re: 2.835 Names
3. Fan mail from some flounder?, Re: 2.835 Names
4. Michael Morse, Re: 2.835 Names
5. "George Fowler h(e flounder?, RE: 2.835 Names
6. Ivan A Derzhanski, 2.835 Names

Perhaps this has been pointed out already, since I missed the previous
postings in this discussion, but in certain dialects of Italian
it's certainly possible to say `la Maria' (the Mary) or `il Giuseppe'
(the Joseph); actually, it's the rule, rather than the exception.
This construct seems more common with first names than with family names.
And it seems especially common in the areas around
Lombardy, including Piacenza (one of my grandfathers comes from there);
I don't know whether it occurs in other regions.
	Massimo

Message 2: Re: 2.835 Names

In reply to the proprosals that "The Donald" arose from Czech usage:
Ivana Trump is Czech and left the country as an adult. However, Czech,
like most Slavic dialects, has no definite article. The West Slavic
linguist here assures me that there is no such form of address in Czech.
L. Jake Jacobson
Pittsburgh

Message 3: Re: 2.835 Names

With regard to whether things like -san or -bey are articles, I don't know
Turkish, but Mr. and -san are *not* restricted to proper nouns, though -san
may be restricted to humans. Okyaku-san means "honored guest", roughly,
just as we have English locutions like Mr. Postman (look and see if there's
a letter for me). You are right in that both -san and Mr. may have the effect
of *turning* the noun they modify into a proper noun. I believe that
some people use Mr. when referring to various organs of their body. While this
is personification, it is still limited. Then of course there's Mr.
Potatohead..
Susan Fischer

Message 4: Re: 2.835 Names

I can't speak for Czech, but it it is certainly colloquial German to say [e.g.]
"Who is it on the phone? Ach, 's ist ja der Hans!" Czech speakers?

Message 5: RE: 2.835 Names

On "The Donald":
 The comment was made that this is what Ivana Trump calls/called her
hubby, and that the practice is transferred from Czech. But Czech HAS NO
ARTICLES!! This has to be a joke, and if influenced by Ivana's Czech
background, then only because she feels the impact of the English articles
more keenly than we native speakers, and finds it easier to play with.
 A similar "misuse" of "the" is regularly practiced by Hannah Gray,
president of the University of Chicago, and other members of the U. of C.
bureaucracy. She refers to the university and "THE University of Chicago",
with heavy emphasis on "the" (not that there are any OTHER Universities
of Chicago!). This grated on me all the time I was a grad student there.
When I get obnoxious alumni mailings I always expect this "the" to be
set off in bold type, and am vaguely disappointed when it isn't.
Consistency, after all, is next to godliness.
 George Fowler

 From: RICHARDcelex.kun.nl
 Subject: RE: 2.831 Names
> I think Donald Trump was dubbed "The Donald" because his ex-wife, Ivana,
> called him that way, supposedly because she was born and raised in
> Czechoslovakia where addressing someone by the definite article is common
> practice.
Czech has no definite article. In fact, it has no means whatsoever
for expressing definiteness. The same holds for Slovak.
---- --- -- - Long Live the Rose and the Heather! - -- --- ----
Ivan A Derzhanski (iadcogsci.ed.ac.uk; iadchaos.cs.brandeis.edu)
* Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK