LINGUIST List 3.861

Thu 05 Nov 1992

Disc: Negation, Placenames

Editor for this issue: <>

Directory

1. Pascal AMSILI, Some points about French "ne" (Re: 3-804/6/29)
2. Michael Kac, Re: 3.854 Negation
3. (ichael Kac, Forwarded message...
4. David Denison, re LINGUIST 3-855
5. John S. Coleman, Place-Names and Articles
6. mark, 3.855 [hill]... hill
7. , Re: 3.856 Queries: Computers, Articles, Addresses

Message 1: Some points about French "ne" (Re: 3-804/6/29)

>From a native speaker, a few points about what have been called here
"'ne' pleonastique / expressif" and which is also known as "ne
expletif" (e.g., Grevisse 1988):
 - This 'ne' can always be omitted without loss of grammaticality
("Je le vois pas" is not considered as grammatical), and occurs only
in careful written French.
 - It has no historical link with complete negation: it is rare
before XVIIIth c., and is generally explained by a contamination
effect: "Avant que Louis ne parte" (before Louis leaves) implies the
idea that Louis has not yet left (Grevisse 88:1492).

Hence, to be more precise here is my reaction as a native speaker:
	1. the "ne expletif" has not lost "pas": it has never been there.
	2. I don't see any connection with the loss of "ne" in spoken
	language, nor with the full general negation without "pas" (as
	noted in 3-829 by Don Webb).

PA
 -------------------------Pascal AMSILI----------------------------------
 IRIT ; Universite Paul Sabatier | tel : (+33) 61.55.66.11 ext. 73.14
 118, rte de Narbonne | e-mail : amsiliirit.fr
 F-31062 TOULOUSE Cedex FRANCE | fax : (+33) 61.55.62.58

Message 2: Re: 3.854 Negation

As one who reported earlier to have grown up with the *So don't I* construction
I second David Johns statement that there's no irony or sarcasm implicit in it.
As far as I can tell, it means exactly the same thing as *So do I*.

Michael Kac

I just came across the usage note cited below in Scott & Denny,
*Elementary English Composition* (Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1906),
p. 254. It suggests an early analogue of *so don't I* and post-
sentential not, and an early controversy over the issue that I was
unaware of. Clearly *I don't think* was common enough at the time
to provoke the following comment:

 *I don't think.* A prejudice has arisen against this
 harmless form of speech because of its misuse in such
 sentences as, "I shan't go to town to-day, I don't think."
 It is also used ironically in the slang expression, "Oh, he's
 all right, I don't think." But such expressions as
 "I don't think I shall go to town," "I don't think he is
 all right," are unobjectionable.

Dennis
Dennis Baron (\ debaronuiuc.edu
Dept. of English \'\ office: 217-333-2392
University of Illinois \'\ ________ fax: 217-333-4321
608 S. Wright St / '| ()_______)
Urbana IL 61801 \ '/ \~~~~~~ \
 \ \~~~~~~ \
 ==). \_______\
 (__) ()_______)

Message 4: re LINGUIST 3-855

Is Lloyd Holliday's question about the doubly redundant English placename
a reference to Pendle, Lancashire, now often known as Pendle Hill?
As I recall (and this is just from memory), this was originally a Celtic
placename, _pen_ `head, top, hill', to which the pleonastic English _hill_
was added, giving _Pen-hill_, later _Pendle_, and then more recently a second
_hill_ been added. But the languages concerned are not what he recalled ...
 David Denison

> A curious feature of all varieties of English (so far as I know) is
> the discrepancy between river and sea names on the one hand (which
> need the article) and mountain and lake names on the other (which
> reject it).

Some mountains require the definite article e.g. "the Matterhorn".
Most(?) mountain ranges also require it e.g. "the Rockies", "the Alps".

--- John Coleman

In Vol. 3.855, in a discussion of a different topic, Lloyd
Halliday asked

 > What is the place in England that in fact means [hill] [hill]
 > hill, where the first two hills are Anglo-Saxon? then Latin I
 > think.

As I recall reading about it, it's Torpenhow(e?) Hill. Tor is
pre-Celtic, pen is Celtic, howe is OE (and still in some use),
and hill is MnE.

 Mark A. Mandel
 Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St. : Newton, Mass. 02160, USA

Message 7: Re: 3.856 Queries: Computers, Articles, Addresses

Note that mountain ranges usually take 'the', but mountains don't in N.
America at least. Similar with lakes, I presume: the Great Lakes, but Lake
Erie, etc.