LINGUIST List 7.578

Thu Apr 18 1996

Disc: Gramatical gender and Ungrammatical sentences

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  1. "Jurij R. Lotoshko", RUSSIAN GENDER, Gramatical gender and Ungrammatical sentences

Message 1: RUSSIAN GENDER, Gramatical gender and Ungrammatical sentences

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:32:37 +0400
From: "Jurij R. Lotoshko" <lotofiltversu.ac.ru>
Subject: RUSSIAN GENDER, Gramatical gender and Ungrammatical sentences

 I thank Allan Wechsler and Keith GOERINGER for the fact that they
point on essential errors in my messages:
 1) In messages LList 7-564 and 7-531 instead of Chechen it is
necessary to read Czech language.
 2) The character set "3D" and other is connected to wrong
code conversion of symbols on accepting computer or impossibility
it to accept Russian (cyrillic) text. As appear, your Makintos
cannot "to speak" in Russian. The computers of firm IBM permit it
to do.
 Therefore I repeat that not a fragment of a text
"Availability or inavailability pronouns in Russian sentences is
not connected with category of a gender."

 About GRAMMATIC GENDER

 1) The history are already known vain endeavours of the
people to dictate to natural language. Recollect events of French
revolution (1798-1803). The new names of months had entered by
dicret (the law). What was received from it?
 Such attempts were and in Russia in 1917-1930 years. The
results are marked only in special literature as akkazionalizm. I
do not speak about creativity of some writers. This special case.

 2) At description another's (foreign) language we try to
dress it in clothes of the native language, but we overlook, that
the sizes, the forms and other are different. For this reason,
when we, linguists, grou up and well brought up in sphere, spirit
of language and representations about native language, try to fit
on and to apply these norms to other language, comes to
misunderstanding or crashing our representations about
investigated language. In Russian language there is the proverb:
"Don't push with your charter in another abbey".

 Therefore the fact, what is acceptable in any measure for
Romance languages is acceptable to slavic languages in smaller
measure or don't acceptable at all.

 "The putting on" of a Homsky,s and other American linguist's
theorys on Russian language or other slavic language can bring
mess, errors, but not true.

 The structure of Russian linguistics (and in number cases
other slavic languages) can be presented in kind of the following
scheme:

1) Phonetics and fonology.
2) Lexicon and lexilogy.
3) Word-formation.
4) Morfology (part of speech!!!)
5) Syntax

Compere with scheme in Llis 7-552 Item 1

 Just in such sequence Russian language in maximum educational
establishments (universities and institutes) is studied. Look
structure of the Russian textbooks for students.

 At study of Russian language by the foreigners this principle
of a sequence is infringed. For foreigner main is the
communications, instead of structure of language. For this reason
the structure of language is perceived as the secondary
phenomenon.

 3. If we speak about grammatic category of a gender, we
should speak about "morfology" of this phenomenon, having removed
in party other levels, but remembering about them.

 Pay attention to that fact, that the question about grammatic
category of a gender are debating on the pages of a LINGUIS LIST
in two directions:
 1) Gramatical gender and
 2) Ungrammatical sentences

 In both cases Russian language is frequently mentioned,
examples from Russian language are given. So it very difficultly
to explain (make clear) in English all those discrepancies in
perception by you about Russian as SYSTEM'S LANGUAGE (see work
Ferdinand de Sousure (? is it right ?).

- --------

Some remarks

Re: 7.552, Disc: Ungrammatical sentences Item 1 (Richard DeArmond)

> Second, we have the problem of gammatical gender which is under
> discussion elsewhere in LList. There is often a connection with
> meaning for human and SOME animate objects, but in most cases
> grammatical gender has no referential property. It is determined
> by the INHERENT and UNPREDICATABLE class of the noun.

 Almost in any slavic language a name the noun without fail
concerns to one of three gender. Look - A.A.Zaleznjak. The
grammatic dictionary of Russian language. Moscow. Publishing house
"Russian language". 1977 ".

 The gender of nouns is stipulated not INHERENT, BUT
tradition, about that testify facts of territorial dialects of
Russian language (Examples look in textbooks on Russian
dialectology or in dialekts dictionaries).

- -----------
Richard DeArmond

> I would define a morpheme as a phonetic string that has a gram-
> matical function. This definition is no doubt controversial.
> This definitial excludes suprasegmentals. Whatever we call sup-
> rasegmentals, they must denote at least one grammatical feature.
> I would define a morpheme as a phonetic string that has a gram-
> matical function. This definition is no doubt controversial.
> This definitial excludes suprasegmentals. Whatever we call sup-
> rasegmentals, they must denote at least one grammatical feature.

&

Robert Beard LList 7-567

> First, he claims that grammatical morphemes are often fraught
> with semantic content. I have argued vigorously that this is not
> the case; that the difference between semantic and grammatical
> categories is sharp and clear and, if we define the terms we use
> in discussing morphological (functional) categories, we may ti-
> dily define how one is mapped onto the other. Consider Shaumy-
> an's interpretation of this example: First, he claims that gram-
> matical morphemes are often fraught with semantic content. I ha-
> ve argued vigorously that this is not the case; that the diffe-
> rence between semantic and grammatical categories is sharp and
> clear and, if we define the terms we use in discussing morpholo-
> gical (functional) categories, we may tidily define how one is
> mapped onto the other. Consider Shaumyan's interpretation of
> this example.....

 Morphemes by its essense are different, but all of them have
any significance. Including by significance of a grammatic Gender.

For example:

 Russian language
 Suffix (morpheme) -ec and zero inflexional ending are
connected as rule with category of a mas. Gender -- zelenec,
samec, slepec an so on.
 If sombody want, to the end of May my students of the second
year will finish course work about formal parameters of a Gender
of nouns and we shall publish these data for you. The purpose of
course work - creation of the computer programs, which on formal
attributes (final morphems or "finalii") words defined their
correlation with that or other Gender.

 Czech language
Jel-i jsme do Prahy. 'They (man) have gone to Prague.'
Jel-y jsme do Prahy. 'They (woman) have gone to Prague.'

In Russian that translated as in English 'Oni pojehali v Pragu'.

 PAY ATTENTION: In Czech language pronouns are absence.
Distinctions in statements are containig in different inflexional
ending of a verb form i/y/. In writing form we can see, that in
first case action make men, and in the second the acting persons
are the woman. At pronunciation (in oral speech) these
distinctions are lost, as both letters transfer same sound [i].
 Which significance in that examples is transferred by the
letters i/y?

- ---------
> What is the meaning of the morphemes -at and -al in terms like
> _dram-at-ic-al_?

 Are you sure, that thereis morpheme -at-? Are you mean a
syllable? A syllable and morpheme are different concepts.

- ----------

Re: Comment of Mr. Or Mrs. Waruno Mahdi (7-564):

>> The gender of a noun in Russian is REVEALED by the gender form
>> of the adjective and some verb forms it governs.

 That is for first-form boy or girl.

 For Russion linguist:
 The gender of a noun in Russian REVEAL or DETERMINE the
gender form of the adjective and some verb forms.

- -------

All sentence was:
>>> There are very few Russian neuter nouns denoting persons, and
>>> I'm not sure whether the corresponding personal pronoun to be
>>> used is _ono_.
>> This assertion deserves the Nobel premium. Please, publish
>> these words. It is news for me.
>
> Aw shucks, how about _'bydlo_ and _ham'lo_ (where _'_ stands be
> fore the stressed syllable), being pejorative references to peop
> le regarded by the speaker as "lowly, slovenly, low-brow" and on
> ly fit for rough labour (the former)..................

 In Russian language there is the proverb 'S kem povedes^sja -
togo i naber'os^sja' ---> "You became such a thing, as that whith
whom you contact".

 So, madam or sir Waruno, these words concern to language,
which has arisen on territory Rusiian empire in middle or end of
the 19 century in environment of small-sized hucksters. It secret
international artificial language, which named "ofeni". The late
this language was borrowed by thiefes, robbers, gangsters and it
has become 'blatnaja muzyka' --> "robbers music".
 'Po feni botajes^?' --> "Do you speak feni?"

 The lexicon of the these language is described in dictionary
I.Dal' under edition Boduen de Kurtene. These dictionary don't
republished. In soviet years if you wanted to look in these
dictionary you need take the sanction from milicija (police). From
these language some words was included into explanatory
dictionaries of Russian language, but they are not words of
Russian language. For example, word "bydlo" come from Polish
language. Only these word has come in dictionaries of literary
language.
 I don't want o aggravate the attitudes (relation) between
Polish and Ukraine, as just therefrom it has come in that
significance, which is fixed in dictionaries (Read N.V.Gogol
'Taras Bulba').
 If to speak about grammatic category of Gender these words,
they all are words of an Neut. Gender. On level of speech (syntax)
they can corresponds with any pronouns.
 So, you alread may recieve the place on Kolyma or in Russian
police.

L.J.R.
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